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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 16, 2013 18:59:17 GMT -8
greetings and salutations. after a bit of browsing and years spent being a member of various boards, i'm finally going out to make my own site. i'm about to start working on the site mechanics and i was wondering how you guys like forum currency. personally, i don't mind it but find it hard to apply correctly. i've seen too many sites butchered with a handful of people spamming threads and mindless topics for the sake of getting ahead of the curve. i mean sure, there should be momentary gain, but if it comes at the expense of fun then it defeats the point of roleplaying. i just don't people grinding for the sake of grinding and all that jazz.
the most fun place i've seen that did this well had members divided into two fractions. they could spend their cash on their own characters for very small upgrade, which in most cases were insignifigant, or contribute it to their fraction. at the end of the donation period the side with the most points got some kind of big ic reward and everyone who participated got a consolation prize (or something more depending on their participation and how many points were pooled).
also, the place in question is going to have a pretty linear plot line. monsters are attack and we need to kill them or we die. hella generic and all that jazz but how do you guys prefer it to be played out? i've seen sites that die because people lose interest in the plot after the first phase while sandboxes seem to keep along steadily. just curious as to what really keeps people engrossed.
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Post by レドックスくん on Jul 16, 2013 19:50:53 GMT -8
hmmm this is just my two cents, but based on the linear plotline that you're describing and the way the site in the past you thought was a lot of fun sigh those were the days you could do something similar on this site, but have it different at the same time? For starters and probably the obvious is to restrict cash flow to actual roleplaying and not things like posting in counting games and occ posts, and the monsters that attack on this linear plotline progress based on how much the member base contributes?
So say each post gets 100 currency on the site. To progress further onto the newer/next part of the plotline, it maybe costs 10,000 or some number way out there. In a way, there are upgrades that people can get to make their weapons/armor/whatever it is that this site is going to be based around are small and really insignificant. Maybe when the next plot arc is unlocked there can be this gigantic battle where any member can join in, and it's more dependent on quality of rping than how far their weapons are upgraded or something like that(though weapon upgrades would help a lot)? either way I'm excited about the concepts discussed and definitely look forward to this site in the future!
PS. I did go on this site in the past where there were two types of currency - one based on how many posts you made, and the other dependent on word count (one word = one currency) kind of thing, and the word count money was used to everyday items while the money based on posts would go toward really significant things. Not sure how you would implement that, but just putting it out there.
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Post by konya on Jul 16, 2013 20:11:01 GMT -8
I'm quite clearly not your target demographic because I don't like the way you intend to use money and I loathe linar plots in any genre or setting. BUT I thought it would be worth posting a few ideas anyway in terms of the way money's used, because it's been something I've had around for a long time.
If you've ever been on a pokemon site, some grant money only at the end of a battle, and usually it's a flat rate although it has been known to go up if it was a really epic thread or something. That's the only way to get money at times and it's used on things like potions - basically just like the games. I think it works well for the genre, so maybe you could incorporate something similar?
I've also, in the past, used money for little aesthetic things as a kind of side-reward that has little or no bearing on the actual RP. My favourite put a little sprite of an animal by the character's username - it would be their ic pet and was very cute. I've also in the past used systems where you can buy small enhancements and items - nothing gamebreaking, more for fun than anything else.
At the moment, aside from our shop system which is kind of like the above, Zellij has a 'point' system that is gained through participation in site-wide events. It's kind of like money I guess, but adds more to a character's IC notoriety. There are different ranks which take a certain number of points to level up. If your character is the highest level of the thief tree, for example, they would be quite renown throughout the site and perhaps even be known by characters who they haven't interacted with. It's used as a fun extra as well as a mode for world-building, and I like it quite a lot.
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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 16, 2013 22:15:00 GMT -8
ofc ofc. you ain't getting no money the easy way even if it's already going to be redonkulously ez. not that i would know from previous abuse or anything lol. everything will come from either posting, participating in events, completing threads, or character deaths. the former will yield the least while deaths will probably contribute the most. i don't want to spoil anything since the source material is still new but as a whole, the threat will naturally become stronger as time passes. in return, you can use money to make them even stronger since stronger opponent yield better rewards.
right now my idea is to make weapons and all that stuff really cheap. like you can buy that stuff just by having a few post here and there and w/e. weapons are no big deal and only act as a coolness factor and yield some ic benefits but everybody should be somewhat armed. the bulk of the money will be spent on the site as a whole to upgrade arcs, available weapon types and etc.
and yeah, i will probably transition the two types of currencies you mentioned into one but make it different based off how much is earned. like the word count from your example would be gained from just posting (spent on small things) and post would be from topics and such (for big things). i wouldn't judge it based off word count or w/e just because that goes back to grinding and i'd like to avoid that.
yeah, i've been on quite a few pokemon sites. i too try to avoid some of the more stat and money based ones. but the thing with that is it only succeeds if you complete the topic. idk about everyone else but i see so many unfinished topics and it just drops member motivation when they can't earn anything because they got flaked or w/e or at least for me. i want to kind of have a safety measure to help end threads and compensate people who end up getting ditched.
i totally agree with money not being a major factor in your power level. i like things fun and don't want to get rolfstomped by someone who can sit on the site all day and churn out three liners. ideally, the weapons will just be for fun and a wow factor but now that i think about it, since it'll try to be realistic that might be a problem.
your point system sounds fun too. i wanted to base that on fame since most of the enemies will be broadcasted around the world. anyone who participated in the event threads will be pretty much put into the world view and become somewhat known, successful or not. i don't know how to record it properly but i'm still in the very rough stages. the main problem is that the nature of most events will be a massive monster appears and members are sent to dispatch it. everyone who goes will be shown on the news since it's a global thing. how do i judge fame? just eliminate it entirely and let people play it out ic? i want some numeric systems but as few as possible to keep things simple. don't wanna be one of those places you have to spend four hours reading.
also, since you dislike linear plots, is there a way a site could have one and still appeal to you? i want it to be based around the plot line that monsters attack and people fight them in a snk like manner but i don't want it to be only that. i just don't know how to incorporate other aspects like sandboxness or slice of life themes.
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Post by konya on Jul 16, 2013 22:22:22 GMT -8
it sounds like you're thinking this through very well! i'm sure you'll end up with a system that works well for you c:
Nope. None at all. If there's a linear plot I will most likely ignore it 110% of the time. I tend to not do plot-heavy sites in general, since I RP to make the most of my own characters and not an overarching story, but I guess one way you could incorporate sandboxy-ness is by incorporating the features you've mentioned in to the setting rather than plot. I'm assuming the site won't revolve 100% around the people fighting the monsters? Make civilians, or even non-combatant members of whatever organisation does the fighting (I don't watch SNK sorry) welcome and able to participate and BAM no longer linear plot, it's slightly more open-world as it'd make room for people to explore all character types within the same setting.
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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 16, 2013 22:35:39 GMT -8
well the premise of the series revolves around that and the bulk of my audience would expect that. i'm pretty sure most people would app hunters and the story really does revolve around them. i want to open up more things but i can't think of another class to open up. honestly, it'll probably end up being divided into hunters, workers who help the hunters in some sort of way (technicians, mechanics, engineers, scientist), etc (civilians, government workers, anything else). unfortunately most of them will probably be shafted, playable but not with as many perks as the hunters. there might be exceptions if someone wants to be a high government official or something. like the best way i could implement this would be early on during the site creation when humanity is winning the monster vs human situation. since humanity is all good and jolly we can still have inner bickering and tension/action between fractions but after that... idek.
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Post by Pool Boy on Jul 16, 2013 22:49:20 GMT -8
the most fun place i've seen that did this well had members divided into two fractions. they could spend their cash on their own characters for very small upgrade, which in most cases were insignifigant, or contribute it to their fraction. at the end of the donation period the side with the most points got some kind of big ic reward and everyone who participated got a consolation prize (or something more depending on their participation and how many points were pooled). I was on a site that had the similar system of donating money to see which side won an event. Money was earned through character death, posting, pokemon death, and graphic/template requests. While I had fun, and I tend to have okay fun with or without money systems, this system has lead to RPers becoming buttsore when their faction lost and event. (Yes, people become extremely bias. Shit can turn into Red Sox v. Yankees in RP.) It of course depends on what the prize is for these event. On the site I was one, it was the right to control territory. People became passionate about winning because they wanted to preserve or open up new plots in these areas - and also, probably just the sense their faction had control over it. There was a lot of silly drama. Staff was accused of being bias toward a faction, and old members were resentful of new members that made money too quickly. So keep an eye out if you do choose to use it. My advice? How about a point system - where people earn point for completing a thread or several for killing a character. You don't want people bathing in their money. Also, I really suggest flipping a coin instead of faction donations.
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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 16, 2013 23:03:14 GMT -8
LOL we're talking about the same site. damn i never knew all that happened in the background. shouldn't of lurked so damn much. i really enjoyed that place and the difference in both mechanics and plot really changed the pokemon genre for me. sure, it had it's flaws but i can honestly say that the change from the usual grinding for pokeball money and having to go through encounters was really refreshing.
for the most part, despite having fractions, pvp will be mostly done for ic fun rather than gains and whatnot. instead of fighting to claim area, money is spent on unlocking new features. so we'll have a few options open like gun usage, sword usage, or shielding. once one has received enough funds ooc it'll be open for everyone to buy for a cheap price. that should help shy away from ooc in-fighting unless someone's all gungho about unlocking something, ala "yo you should put points into that pls pls pls. i want to unlock it, it'll be so good omg. etc." fractions will be location based and define what type of build you start with. i might just eliminate them after a while and have them unite under one fraction or w/e.
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Post by Pool Boy on Jul 16, 2013 23:07:30 GMT -8
It was a nice place, and I made a lot of friends there. But the systematics were the cause of most of the site drama. Keeping in mind, all large sites have drama.
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the greatest general under the heavens
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Post by Egao, Egao Everywhere on Jul 17, 2013 3:26:20 GMT -8
I was reading through this earlier and was wondering if we're talking about that. But I thought you were talking about a different place when you said that this site apparently did it right, which I don't think was an accurate thing to say. I thought the money system got broken eventually; it didn't keep up to the times. The members were responsible people that's why they were able to pull it far enough but as the site progressed, the staff failed to update the mechanics to fit the larger member base and fix several inconsistencies due to characters owning numerous pokemon and money. There's no perfect system that's why you always have to update and make changes to see what would best fit your current community.
I have yet to read most of the suggestions about this. I'll write something up when I'm feeling more coherent.
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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 17, 2013 9:39:51 GMT -8
well it's the best implementation i saw for a while. the only problem is what you pointed out, it didn't adjust to the current member base. but i don't blame them. pre was fucking thriving and holy crap you guys had a billion people. i mean i think scaling money upwards would have been an okay fix but nothing really went through until it was too late. i intend to be very, very hands on with this project so i'll try to accomidate as much as i can. probably start off with making beginning stuff ez pz to make them feel like they're making progress and scale back end stuff to be real investments.
so i just took a look around and saw another post about linear plots. apparently i have a different definition of it than the previous topic and wanted to maybe make something clear. the previous definition made it look like you have no effect on the plot. ash ketchum and co get confronted from team rocket, ash will lose at first and then beat them. team rocket has no chance to win and everything is predetermined. i don't want to follow this as i like people to mold how things will work. i might end up holding your hand and guiding you through some plot ends but ultimately it will be up to the player. by linear, i mean like the plot is pretty concise and straight forward. monsters attack from the sea and you fight them to save the world. you're a new trainer in the w/e region and you work your way through eight badges to fight the pokemon league. members can deviate and maybe if they don't like training they can become breeders or w/e. you can lose fights and even go rogue and steal your jaegar or some crazy batshit stuff just expect repercussions. this is all opposed to some more sandboxy things where the plot is "this is your setting" now romance or w/e bro.
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Post by konya on Jul 17, 2013 18:08:16 GMT -8
I just want to speak up against your "romance or whatever bro" line, I know it was for humour but that's not a sandbox.
A sandbox puts you in a wonderfully constructed setting and lets you play around with it however you feel. Skyrim is a sandbox. Skyrim is a really fun sandbox. I believe you can make a site like what you would like AS a sandbox (not that I think you should, because different people like to rp differently, but if I were to make one I know I would). Even though I do not watch SNK it's clear to me that there are more people and fixtures in the world other than those who fight Titans. What is their story like? How do they cope? Do they have friends, family, who do fight, how do they feel about that? What are the dangers of living as someone who can't fight in such a world? What about the injured or otherwise disabled who still want to help, what place in the world is there for them?
I think of it this way.
In a linear plot, or driven plot, or plot-heavy or whatever you want to call it situation, you're following a particular snippet of the world. In sandbox, you have the whole world and each character is their own snippet. This distinction is why people don't enjoy the World War Z movie, as far as I know, because it narrows the scope from the expanse of the book.
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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 17, 2013 19:05:27 GMT -8
it wasn't supposed to be humorous in nature. i'm just really casual and kind of crude(?) in the way i talk. but, for the most part, i consider like 80% of romances sandbox. there's an exception but for the most part romance sites usually lack a real definite plot. starcross comes to mind but that was only up for like two weeks so i dunno if you know it where the plot was just characters have astology signs... uh idk do what you please, we're romance oriented or w/e. highschool roleplays come to mind too but i didn't think of that last night.
we'll take skyrim for an example. by nature it's a sandbox. if you wanted to make it linear then it would be just go to this dungeon and slay w/e and then kill the dragon. actually, the plot is pretty linear it just doesn't force you to follow it. the world is yours however you want to and i kind of what that feel but some focus on the questline.
ideally the site would be like skyrim but there will be times where you're timed. after x amount of playtime a dragon will attack one of the villages or w/e. sure, you can avoid it just like you can in-game but if you do then the dragon will eventually kill the village if not in that assault then in the next following ones. players are free to continue and do as they like but most of them should go to slay the dragon.
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Post by konya on Jul 17, 2013 19:31:34 GMT -8
Romance =/= sandbox. Sandbox =/= romance. Skyrim is a sandbox because while there IS the main plot (fighting Alduin) you can also fuck off and not do that at all if you don't want to (I still haven't). In contrast, FPS are usually more linear - you can't just say "noooope I don't want to get the girl, Bioshock Infinite, I'd much rather backtrack to that fair and play the games some more". If Skyrim's plot was linear, I wouldn't be able to have just wandered off with the Skeleton Key and not return it ever - because by nature linear means continuing along a specific line, and deviating from that line means it's not... linear. Skyrim is a sandbox. You 'should' go slay the dragon, but you don't have to and no-one is forcing you to. That is a sandbox.
A sandbox does not remove the characters whose drive it is to go kill the dragon. It adds extra opportunity for players to maybe be one of those dependant on those who kill the dragon. It creates space for someone who tried to kill a dragon and failed and now they have to live in a world where there are still dragons. It's broader than 'everyone needs to go kill the dragon', is what I'm saying, because not everyone in the world is designed to kill dragons and their stories can be just as interesting.
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Post by KOI KOI on Jul 17, 2013 19:54:28 GMT -8
yeah, i know. romance isn't sandbox but they can and usually are just like how most highschool rps are either fantasy or romance or both but that doesn't mean they are. but what i'm saying is that skyrim plot is linear. you go to x, clear y dungeon, slay z dragon, then fight the main boss. i haven't either btw l0l. i only got to after you visit the place to get the second part of your shout. you take that and make that a simple game and then boom, that's linear. the fact you can ignore it and there's a whole world for you to play with makes it a san dbox. ignoring it has no signifigant change in the plot. if you take a year to fight alduin that doesn't change the plot or anything. the plot is on a standstill until you decide to move on. that's what makes it a sandbox.
now let's take what you said and we go through skyrim as normal. you reach the dragonborne temple and you learn your second shout. then they say go to x or y or do z (i forget i haven't played in 5ever and idk why). you have the option to delay it and instead go to a nearby village and have a merry old time with side quest. eventually, you make your way to your destination only to find that it's been destroyed. apparently it got destroyed while you were off side trekking. the quest deviates into a back up plan to accomodate this but you delay again, going to fight camp of barbarians and looting your things. by the time you finish you head to whiterun only to find the quest giver and some of the essential people have died from another dragon attack. eventually you're forced into game over aka bad end ala visual novel style. would that still constitute a sandbox? i would say it's a mesh of the two but more reliant on linear since if you want to proceed to the very end of the story you kind of have to obey certain prompts.
i mean i want to open up to more people outside of the pilots who will slay the monsters. but since the world of the source is so reliant on them it's kind of hard to. like a school roleplay is obviously going to revolve around students and teachers but you'll get your local resturant owner and whatnot. i just don't know how to properly open it up while making them open up. like reporters are ez pz but civilians will probably end up getting heavily shafted and dropped after a while which i guess is fine considering the text.
also tyvm. i love insightful discussion like these <3
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