[City -]

So while setting up the systems and rules for my new site I remembered a debate that happened on an old site of mine over something that - at least I believe - has been common place for quite awhile now. What am I talking about? Well I would considure it a combat "system" as a whole, but the maim debate that happened on my old site was if [DE] -death enabled- threads were fair/unfair overall. Of course, I was on the side of having DE threads (after alll i was the one who put the system in), but it seemed that a lot of members & even a few guests were a bit put off by it. So getting to the question...

what's the big issue most people have with a combat system / site that allows Death enabled threads?

I can honestly say that I don't really see a big flaw in it, but I want to know what other people think. I've seen people make a big deal over de systems (whatever you want to call it) on multiple different sites and each time I just find myself a bit more confused. I don'treally see what people think is so "unfair" about them - this iis the main argument I got against it anyway, with very little solid reason as to what (other than maybe potential bias) that made it so unfair. I especially don't understand why people honestly care (especially on dual natured sites where de threads are optional).

Since most sites make it very clear what the threads are, require them to be clearly labeled, have staff watch them closely for fairness,allow numerous ways to appeal u fair results, etc...

Why does this seem llike such a touchy topic?
(I'll be the first to admit that as an admin and a staff member I understand how the system works, but because my muse rarely leans towards wanting to be in combat I've never really used de threads - they don't bother me, in fact I'm very indifferent to them)...

Anyway I guess my final question would be:
Do you prefer sites that allow Death Enabled threats (or a similar "combat system") or would you rather have that aspect left out??

[Kuroya]

I'm going to address the first part of that since its a large reason of why I do not play death-enabled sites unless the death has no real meaning (ie Log Horizon).

It's a literal pain in the butt. I put so much time and effort into making a character. So dang much. I don't want to have to suddenly be left with nothing because someone decided to kill me. I don't want to lose all of my items because someone didn't like me or decided they wanted my fancy sword that I earned. It's a pet peeve really and extremely unfair to boot.

And if you think people won't abuse it... you're wrong. On my sites, in the rules, I have that you can't force near-death or unreasonable-to-survive situations. Because that happened to a friend of mine. Death was allowed with permission. She never gave it, so instead she was pushed into an impossible to survive situation after she got screwed over by an RNG. The story stuck with me and yeah.

I guess I just have the opinion that, for characters, there are so many other ways to look like a "killer" without going after actual pcs. Take out some NPCs. Cause some blatant destruction. Terrorize some people but don't kill them so you can make use of that terror. Killing someone else just really seems like overkill, if you pardon the pun.

For me, it boils down to that really. I don't want to put in the effort and have it mean nothing in the end. I don't want to have a "game over" because someone didn't like me - if I did something stupid in a dungeon, that's my fault and I deserved it, but on the other hand... if it's a target someone else painted on my back, I don't want it. So yeah. There's a story from the other side of the fence.

EDIT: I'm going to add that I'm not opposed to killing my characters for plot-related reasons. If it advances the storyline, I'd do it more than happily. I don't in the least mind killing some of mine off for the story or even if I want to - but that's because it's my decision to make. When it's not my decision to make, that's when I have a problem. I mean... I understand in a system, it's fair to die if you keep attacking things and don't heal. I accept the consequences. My aversion stems from people more or less forcing it on you.

When it's a choice I have a large amount of input in, I don't mind it. It's the results of any abuse being permanent (or the fact that if you're not okay with it, you have to deal with the consequences) that really turns me off about it.

[Egao, Egao Everywhere]

People rp for different reasons. Death-enabled systems, usually implying a more competitive nature, doesn't mesh well with one group over another.

I'm in the group that does not mesh well with it. But not because my character can die, but because of the implication that people wouldn't voluntarily kill their characters for the sake of plot, progress, or w/e, that a competitive battle of some sort has to take place for that to happen. (Even in dual sites, as you said; I still do not like the existence of that implication at all.)

I was in a site where you had the option of enable PvP. I, and the people I knew there, were indifferent about it. We would kill our chars if it were worth it and not if it weren't worth it. I feel like as long as my stance is legitimate for not killing my character when he/she should have been killed in a system that I consciously agreed in, I'm still in the right.

In short, I'm defiant about it. Don't tell me my character can die because of a system. I would never accept it. Yes, even if the staff clearly say you WILL die according to the system if so and so, I would defy it if it comes to it. Because I think if it ends up being unfair, it's a bullshit system anyway.

If it doesn't come to that, I don't care. I do everything to make a good story. If anyone tries to stop me, even the staff, I'll trample them.

edit: oh but it's different in dungeon mod sites. I was only talking about freeform sites.

[Elena]

On my site, death is allowed (and encouraged sometimes) and combat is an important part (but not everything.) However, I don't have a system, except communicating with the other writers in order to write an awesome combat story together and negotiating the outcomes on common agreement.

The Battle of Nassau took part recently in our story, and several characters and NPCs died, including mine. But the twist is that most writers decided which of their characters to kill and how exactly, or which to wound and how severely.

The only characters killed whose writers didn't take part in the decision were those which weren't actually played for several months, and whose writers vanished without answering e-mails. If they cared, they would have answered.

I like having death enabled, but without other system than the agreements of all the involved parts. So your words "have staff watch them closely for fairness,allow numerous ways to appeal u fair results" sound alien to me.

Mar 9, 2015 5:22:27 GMT -8 Egao, Egao Everywhere said:

I'm in the group that does not mesh well with it. But not because my character can die, but because of the implication that people wouldn't voluntarily kill their characters for the sake of plot, progress, or w/e, that a competitive battle of some sort has to take place for that to happen.

We would kill our chars if it were worth it and not if it weren't worth it. I feel like as long as my stance is legitimate for not killing my character when he/she should have been killed in a system that I consciously agreed in, I'm still in the right.

In short, I'm defiant about it. Don't tell me my character can die because of a system. I would never accept it.

I do everything to make a good story. If anyone tries to stop me, even the staff, I'll trample them.

Tanz said it much better than me. I agree with her completely.

[City -]

Thanks for the input guys, all very valid points. I do indeed see the issue with have a site that is "constant hardcore / de every thread" I agree that the risk really isn't worth the time there. I've never had a site like that, or been a member of a site like that for that matter:
In fact, the only combat "de" system I've ever encountered or used on my sites is allowing members to create de threads If they want to (threads that are very clearly labeled so people know what they're getting into) -which I guess is he part I never understood (lol) since the threads were optional and they didn't have to participate in them.
I myself pprobably wouldn't join a hardcore de site, but I'll admit (from personal experience of admining many different genres of sites) that theres a need for de threads sometimes, though they are definitely something that need to be used sparingly

I also agree that there are better ways to go about a lot of character development without the need of these threads.

I guess I understand the "stigma" behind this sort of combat system now XD

[Egao, Egao Everywhere]

It is definitely of something of necessity depending on your community. Some people like the danger of death and have their character dance about it.

I was in an rp site called Oracle Zone, which prided itself as a dark fantasy Pokemon rp unlike the other sites of its time. I was 14 and the community were generally high school people. To us, death and dark things were cool. I was a mod there and I told people that their char could die and their reaction was, "woah."

They loved challenging the possibility of death. I think if they ever do die, it will become some sort of bragging right.

Some people like the possibility for immersion because there's a risk in it.

[City -]

Mar 9, 2015 10:56:04 GMT -8 Egao, Egao Everywhere said:

It is definitely of something of necessity depending on your community. Some people like the danger of death and have their character dance about it.

I was in an rp site called Oracle Zone, which prided itself as a dark fantasy Pokemon rp unlike the other sites of its time. I was 14 and the community were generally high school people. To us, death and dark things were cool. I was a mod there and I told people that their char could die and their reaction was, "woah."

They loved challenging the possibility of death. I think if they ever do die, it will become some sort of bragging right.

Some people like the possibility for immersion because there's a risk in it.

I see what you mean XD I definitely agree that it depends on the community, it seems like people complain if you allow de threads, and people complain if you don't...

I guess really its a situation of "you can't make everyone happy."

[eggy azoozoo]

If the setting is supposed to be high stakes, I feel better immersed if the board is Death Enabled. I also really appreciate the level of immersion that's made possible when there's legitimate IC consequences for characters doing completely wack things that obviously transgress in-universe rules for what is lawful and/or appropriate.

Though I've always been the type to be pretty okay with having characters killed off, if it makes for an epic thread. Even promising ones with build up and great character relationships going- be all GRRM man. Fucking kill the promising rebel king with a family to avenge. Just friggin devastate your RP partners because there will be actual ripples from one character dying that'll continue to have effects downstream.

[Deleted]

Why not just use disclaimers? Members who don't mind their thread being de could simply tag [de] on it. If a thread didn't have the tag or wasn't noted anywhere inside the thread, then everyone will know that death or any fatal injuries aren't allowed. That way, people have control over it. I used to play on a lot of RoTK sites when I was younger, so this was a constant threat. Whenever fights broke out, the mods would closely watch over it only stepping in when it felt like things were unrealistic and unfair. And members could argue a mod's choice by asking for another mod's opinion.

[City -]

Mar 10, 2015 11:50:52 GMT -8 eso said:

Why not just use disclaimers? Members who don't mind their thread being de could simply tag [de] on it. If a thread didn't have the tag or wasn't noted anywhere inside the thread, then everyone will know that death or any fatal injuries aren't allowed. That way, people have control over it. I used to play on a lot of RoTK sites when I was younger, so this was a constant threat. Whenever fights broke out, the mods would closely watch over it only stepping in when it felt like things were unrealistic and unfair. And members could argue a mod's choice by asking for another mod's opinion.

Actually this is the type of system I used/always used lol

But, I still had numerous people pitching a fit about having de threads even though they were clearly labeled as either [DE] or [Death].

I was always just like "I get if its not your cup of tea, but other people like them, so just don't join the de threads." It baffles me XD

[Deleted]

Mar 10, 2015 13:34:35 GMT -8 City - said:

Actually this is the type of system I used/always used lol

But, I still had numerous people pitching a fit about having de threads even though they were clearly labeled as either [DE] or [Death].

I was always just like "I get if its not your cup of tea, but other people like them, so just don't join the de threads." It baffles me XD

Yeah, and then you get the people who do join those types of threads but don't like the outcome so they'll try and fight it. But when it comes down to being a sore loser, I mean... that pretty much just goes without saying, ya know? "Enter at your own risk!" But I'm on the same page as you on that. I don't understand it either, but eh. What can you do?

I had a site once where there was a dueling area. Where you write action with others in audited areas. Where pretty much any thread posted there was death acceptable. So it's not like the boundaries aren't tapped with caution. If it wasn't your thing, you just simply wouldn't post there.

As someone who enjoys writing action, I'll always ask for permission first before posting something that can potentially fatally wound the other participant's character. That way, anything that happened was because we wanted it to happen. Writing isn't fun once you no longer control the outcome in combat threads. So, that's something I've always done to prevent disputes. 

[City -]

eso I totally get that XD I know a lot of sites / people who work well with combat areas like that, I personally rarely find myself with muse for heavy combat threads but i enjoy being an observer I arena boards and such XD

If you ask me I think a lot of the hype might come from people seeing de threads being allowed and worrying that the entire site will one day just turn into some kind of all out war to the death, last character standing gets a cookie kind of site (lol).